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A conversation with Fabien & Patricia Chabreuil (Part 2)
Andrea Isaacs et Jack Labanauskas (Translation from the French by Anjali Crawford)

In our last issue, we published the first part of a two-part interview with Fabien and Patricia Chabreuil of Paris, France. The Chabreuils discussed their extensive training programs which, in addition to the Enneagram Model, include studies in Transaction Analysis and Neuro-Linguistic Programming. In this follow-up article, the Chabreuils share more about their work and their use of the "Enneagrams of Process."

Enneagram Monthly: Tell us about the other parts of your training program that focus on the Enneagram.

Patricia Chabreuil: The second focus of our work with the Enneagram consists of studying how to apply the Enneagram in everyday life: one's personal communication style, professional life, and negotiation skills. In the area of learning to negotiate, Fabien and I have developed a specific method that uses both the Enneagram of process and the Enneagram of personality for improving negotiations of all kinds.

EM: Although our readers have more than likely experienced the use of the Enneagram in their daily lives, would you give us some examples of how this works?

Fabien Chabreuil: Sure. Most people find that the main impact of the Enneagram in everyday life is to bring about greater tolerance. Discovering the Enneagram typically has the immediate effect of generating more acceptance of others, whether it has do with a particular issue or with people in general. This leads to a true understanding of the motivations and the suffering that exists behind apparently incomprehensible actions by others or ourselves.

For example, people often telephone us for information about our courses. And sometimes, right from the first two sentences, we notice that the person speaking to us over the phone uses words and a tone that are very aggressive, even though it's the first time we're talking with this person. I used to be very surprised by this reaction and would try to respond politely and calmly to the caller. I thought that was the best approach, both from a business point of view and from the human side of the interaction. However, since becoming familiar with the Enneagram, I have analyzed these situations and have discovered that those who conduct themselves in this manner have systematically been Eights who were putting me through a kind of test. To pass this test, one would have to respond in the same manner and with the same tone as the Eight, and then-between two strong people-it becomes possible to have a relationship of trust.

PC: I remember a client in therapy who was having difficulty understanding relationship problems. In analyzing the situation with her, it became evident that her husband, a Two, was becoming nervous, almost aggressive, each time she offered something to him or asked him what he wanted. With the help of the Enneagram, she recognized the fear that existed behind her husband's attitude: "I can't be loved if the other person sees that I have needs." She also understood that she needed to reassure him at those moments.

This gaining of understanding and tolerance is also beneficial for parents. How many parents feel guilty while wondering, for example, why their Five child isolates in her room rather than sharing in family life or playing with friends?

FC: What's more, the Enneagram brings to everyday life not only greater tolerance of others, but also greater self-acceptance. Understanding one's own patterns of behavior can help dissolve unnecessary guilt, reassure us, and bring about more self-love. In our trainings, we notice this reaction particularly with Fours-who after discovering that a lot of other people react as they do, find themselves in a state of disarray and yet relieved.

EM: We'd like to know more about how you use the Enneagram in the negotiation process and how you combine the Enneagram of Personality with the Process Enneagram?

PC: In France, negotiation is a public health issue! We don't have a culture that promotes the idea of negotiation. This is as true in one's personal life as it is in our society as a whole. We experience demonstrations and labor strikes rather frequently in France. The French tendency is to stay fixed in one's positions until there's conflict and to avoid negotiating until the conflict becomes unbearable for one or both of the parties. When negotiation does take place, it's often reduced to haggling, and both parties leave the negotiation process feeling bitter and dissatisfied, which becomes the germ of new conflicts in the future. However, the need to negotiate is an integral part of everyday experiences-negotiating the price of a car with a salesperson, a job promotion with your boss, your upcoming vacation plans with your spouse, etc.

FC: Yes, negotiating is not something exceptional, something reserved for a major occasion or important decision. It can change a life to realize and understand that everyone can use negotiation as a means for expressing and satisfying one's needs in many situations-rather than giving in, bargaining, or imposing one's ideas on others.

EM: How does this concept apply to your work?

FC: For twenty years, we have been familiar with and practicing "principled negotiation," as defined by Roger Fisher and William Ury of the Harvard Negotiation Project. The fundamental idea is that the legitimate needs of both parties must be satisfied. That implies that the parties must have both a moral and a cooperative attitude surrounding the process. It became clear to us that the Enneagram allows us to better define our own needs and to better understand the needs of others. It is on that basis that we built the Enneagram of Process which we use in preparation for win-win negotiations.

Figure C : Enneagram for Negotiation Preparation
© Institut Français de l'Ennéagramme, Paris, 1996

EM: Would you tell us what the Enneagram of Process is and how it works?

PC: Oops! It is a extremely theoretical matter and it would take several issues of the Monthly to fully explain this. Happily you have already published very good articles on the subject and readers who are interested in it should also read the books Enneagram Studies by John G. Bennett and The Intelligent Enneagram by A.G.E. Blake. In a few words, the Enneagram of Process consists of placing the different stages of any process on an Enneagram symbol. This allows for a better understanding of the structure of this process.

FC: One of the advantages is that the Enneagram model forces us to break up the process into three phases, and to avoid the traps, or pitfalls, of dualistic thinking. This is particularly evident in the case of a negotiation where it is imperative to escape from a "Me vs. The Other" debate in order to discover how the two apparently opposing forces can come to a reconciliation and an agreement.

Another advantage is that an Enneagram of Process allows one to examine each stage based on its connecting lines, and thereby points out the pitfalls of sequential thinking. Of course, time flows linearly around the circle, but our thought and our will move along the connecting lines, and according to the point, project themselves into either the past or the future. For example, at stage One of a process, if we follow the direction of the connecting lines from point One, we look toward points Four and Seven, both of which will occur at a future point in time. This helps to integrate this vision of the future into our actions. Conversely, at stage Seven, the connecting lines lead to the past at points One and Five and remind us to take into account that which has already occurred.

Another attribute of this model is the ability to know the specific moments when the process needs a particular impulse in order to continue-the so-called "shock points:" Three, Six, and Nine.

EM: How does that work in your Enneagram of Negotiation?

PC: A successful negotiation results in a lasting agreement, one that is concluded amicably and also takes into account the legitimate interests of all parties involved along with the interests of the community. Everybody wins, knows that he has won and that the others have won also.

It all starts with studying one's own point of view. First of all, within stage One, called "Aim," we can define our objectives vis-à-vis the different parties concerned by the negotiation.

FC: The Process Enneagram forces point One to look toward points Four and Seven and, therefore, to begin to question what the impact will be on the relationship and the legitimacy of one's demands. In this way, the "intellectual gymnastics" of looking at the lines that extend from each point is practiced while moving among all the points from stage to stage around the symbol.

PC: Then, in stage Two, it's necessary to define an "Alternative"-what one will do in case the negotiation fails. As Eric Berne said, "A looser states what he will do if he wins; a winner knows what he will do if he loses."

FC: When one's own position is clearly stated, it becomes possible to take an interest in the other party when arriving at points Four and Five-where the task is to analyze the relationship that we have with the others and its importance, and to understand their position and stance. Here's where the traditional Enneagram of Personality plays a primary role in helping us understand what is truly important for the other, and to identify their unconscious needs which could be the key to the negotiation.

Only then is it possible to reach an agreement. In other words, we start by analyzing what parts of the demands of the two parties are legitimate (point Seven) and end with researching possible solutions within this framework (point Eight).

EM: Isn't this fairly complicated?

PC: The process is elaborate but implementation is simple and easy. We've put a lot into making something very practical. At each stage, there's a structured questionnaire that ensures the subject is fully addressed. Our trainees have used this method of negotiation in their personal lives with as much success as they have in negotiating serious issues in their professional lives.

EM: What is the third of the three main categories that comprise your training programs?

FC: It's the most important one. We've illustrated the concept with the "other" Enneagram of Process shown in Figure D, The Enneagram of Spiritual Liberation.

Figure D : The Enneagram of Spiritual Liberation
© Institut Français de l'Ennéagramme, Paris, 1994

PC: The first phase, points One and Two, makes use of the mental center. For example, we discover the Enneagram of Personality through a conversation with a friend, a book, or a class. We learn things about ourselves. Our knowledge of the model becoming more refined, we start to understand better how people around us function and what motivates them. If we stop there, we'll have an overly simplified view of the Enneagram-one that tends to put people in boxes or is used to justify excuses for one's behavior. For example: "He's so abrupt! He's never very considerate of others. He must be an Eight!" Or: "It's normal that I didn't complete that task. I'm a Seven!"

FC: The Process Enneagram teaches us that, at that moment, we need a "wake-up call" that could result in a breakthrough-the shock point of Three on the diagram. We believe that this breakthrough must be emotional. Discovering one's type must be accompanied by a strong desire to abandon one's limitations. I remember the moment I discovered that I was a Seven and the feeling of astonishment that came with it: "How can that be possible? How can a guy as intelligent as I am be explained by just three words: avoidance of pain! How can it be that a guy who values freedom above all else feels like a slave to those words!"

PC: I've had the same experience. It was a shock to discover that as a One my vice was anger, that I was actually intolerant. Me, who practiced controlling my emotions!? Me, who would fight for tolerance!? It's in this moment of emotional shock that our will to change begins to sprout, that we get in touch with the desire to be liberated from the automatic conditioning of our type. We start to realize that our point of view is not the only right way.

FC: Yes, the three centers are used in this order: mental, emotional, and instinctive. Or, knowing, desiring, and acting. (It can seem strange that the centers are placed differently on the Enneagram of Process compared with the Enneagram of Personality but they are two distinct systems, their real concordance is at a deeper level.)

EM: How do you assist students in achieving this breakthrough?

FC: From the very first training, we introduce our students to the work of self-observation and analysis of one's life.

PC: When first approaching the Enneagram, either through books or other programs, one discovers its emphasis on the negative aspects of the personality rather than the positive. This is indispensable! If everything were fine, then there wouldn't be any reason to change. Indeed, this is the art of this work: to make people experience the emotional shock of their condition with sufficient force so as to stir up the need for personal change-without regret, shame, or guilt.

One of the small miracles of the Enneagram is that this is actually possible and rather easy. Each time we marvel at how our students experience the work of self-discovery with joy.

FC: I believe this is a true spiritual joy-one that comes from sensing the possibility of a connection with essence itself.

EM: What work lies beyond this first shock-point?

FC: What's next is to work on the emotional plane in two stages. The first area at point Four has to do with forgiveness. Neither psychological nor spiritual progress can be made as long as anger undermines our personalities. Therefore, we have developed a specific method for freeing oneself of the anger and the grief that are linked to past offenses. Again, the method is based on both the Enneagram of Process and the Enneagram of Personality. We teach this method during the training and use it in individual therapy sessions when working on patient issues such as physical or sexual aggression, psychological harassment, difficulties with one's parents, etc. Afterwards, the person feels relieved and at peace.

PC: Then, what's next is to cross over the gap between points Four and Five. In every Enneagram of Process, this passage is a turning point in the work. This is where our consciousness realizes, beyond a simple mental understanding of the concept, that the true goal of this path of awakening means that all the Work already done and that which still has to be done, is not for oneself but for others. The development of compassion then occurs at stage Five.

EM: And then is a new shock point necessary?

FC: Precisely. A new impulse is needed in order to act. Granted, the earlier work has already changed our way of being with ourselves and others, but action can only be completely right upon arrival at stage Seven. Until then, the limitations of personality resulted in a lack of the necessary discernment. Beginning with the knowledge acquired during the first phase (the mental) and continuing with the emotional cleanup that takes place in the second phase, it becomes now possible to really transform oneself. This is the literal meaning of the Greek word metanoia, and thus the name assigned to stage Seven. This self-transformation results in a true service to others, point Eight, the ultimate goal of the spiritual journey.

EM: Would you give us an example?

FC: If I were a Two, how would I know that I have not created the other's need simply to satisfy my compulsion? How could I be certain that I choose the most useful form of help for the other and not the one that will get me the most recognition of my worth? If I were a Six, how do I know if my course of action will lead me toward the virtue of courage, or if it will merely satisfy my counterphobic tendencies? You see, each enneatype has its traps of false service and false personal growth work. This is why implementing "right action" in one's life cannot be undertaken without either a profound experience of the Work of spiritual liberation, or the guidance of a spiritual teacher of some kind.

EM: How is this accomplished?

PC: We use for this Work the Process Enneagram, which we just discussed, as a compass that point us the spiritual path and the traditional Enneagram of Personalities as an indicator that show us where we are on this path.

In conjunction with these two major tools, we use additional techniques derived from NLP, Focusing, Quantum Psychology® by Dr. Stephen Wolinsky, Tibetan Buddhism, the teachings of Gurdjieff, and some methods that we have developed specifically for this program, among which the forgiveness process is one of the more important.

EM: There seems to be a tremendous range in your training program. Can you briefly describe these systems, how they're inter-related, and how you work with them?

FC: If we were to fully respond to that question here, this month's issue of the Monthly would become the Encyclopedia Britannica! Seriously, we use each of these techniques for what it does best. For example, NLP is excellent for reconnecting oneself with resources in the here and now and for the work of clearing up one's past emotional issues. The technique known as Focusing allows one to get in touch with one's unconscious feelings. Quantum Psychology® is an extraordinarily effective tool for deconstructing the hypnotic trances linked to the automatic behaviors of our type; it's a major cutting-edge methodology within today's domain of psychology. Tibetan Buddhism provides very easy and effective methods for developing compassion. Most of your readers should be familiar with Gurdjieff's techniques of self-observation and self-remembering. These techniques are invaluable when it comes to stage One: Self-Knowledge, and stage Seven: Metanoia.

EM: What do you mean by the "forgiveness process"?

PC: We have all experienced, to varying degrees, occasions when other people were the source of our suffering. When we fell, whether consciously or not, the anger toward or the hate we have for our offenders, we enclose ourselves in the past, we are continually reliving the past and so we become our own executioners. Anger and hate are deadly poisons for the spirit; they are at the core of most of our psychological problems and they impede spiritual liberation. Even if it requires a good deal of letting go, forgiveness can be practiced and learned. We have developed a method for doing that.

EM: Can you give us some more details? An Enneagram of Process, perhaps?

FC: You are right! How have you guessed? The Enneagram of Process has a fractal structure. That is, each stage of an Enneagram of Process can be described by a new Enneagram of Process. For point Four on the Enneagram of Spiritual Liberation, this zooming in looks like the diagram in Figure E.

Figure E : The Enneagram of Forgiveness
© Institut Français de l'Ennéagramme, Paris, 1996

As with the other Enneagrams of Process, it would require a rather long discussion to detail its stages, even if your readers can analyze it with all that we have already said about the structure of an Enneagram of Process. But we can do a quick overview of the different stages around the circle, keeping in mind that the real process is much more subtle and less linear.

PC: To begin, we need a first impulse, a first shock-point that sweeps out all the misconceptions that our culture has about forgiveness. That's where we get the strength to get back in touch with the emotions surrounding the offense: first anger, then the sadness related to the loss that we experienced. After the emotions are accepted and experienced, then one can analyze more objectively what took place, and to understand one's role in the circumstance, and that of the offender. Of course, it's not about justifying the offender's behavior, but simply to gain a better view of the mechanisms that made the offender act that way.

FC: Finally, one can begin letting go, which is the true forgiveness. And once this is achieved, one can stop living with an eye on the past, or the wrong that was done and turn toward the future. You see that here again the three phases of the process correspond to the three centers-this time in the order of emotional, mental, and instinctive.

To turn toward the future also signifies integrating forgiveness into one's life in general. It's not simply about forgiving one or several offenses, but to become someone who forgives. Forgiveness then becomes a way of life. Just like the Enneagram itself can become a way of life.

EM: Should we end on that note?

FC: Yes, that would seem to me to be a very fine way to conclude our interview. Thanks, Andrea and Jack.

PC: Thank you.